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Thread: Ok..What am I doing wrong..

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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    Default Ok..What am I doing wrong..

    I think it's a timing issue..but longer lines don't solve the issue..which is line coil piles..Lol gotta be a timing issue..
    Well I do know I need more practice..n prolly flatter water for it..n not exploring new waters while getting the hang of things.. but that all said..I seemed to be doing better with the lighter line n shorter length..was about the length of the rod with it at its shortest setting.. opinions words of wisdom? I'll take anything you got..even tried.n it seemed to help a bit...a yarn indicator...go ahead..let me have it.. lol
    Was not getting any knots mind you.. should I be using flouro tippet n not mono? That a big deal..I think I need to order a furled line or two n try n work down from there.. thoughts on that...?
    Wish ya great fishing,Bill

  2. #2
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    One possibility is that the coils are in the line from being stored on the reel.. Have you straightened it?
    Guns don't kill children. Children do! Guns just make them so much more efficient.

  3. #3
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    Easy part - mono vs fluoro tippet shouldn't make any difference in casting. I use both and don't notice any difference.

    Hard part - line coils? Could you explain a bit more?

    Is your line twisting up and tangling? or

    Is the line curled on the water after the cast? not fully unrolling and landing straight?

    Take a look at this Discover Tenkara article and watch the video that shows the "fly first" cast.
    http://eat-sleep-fish.co.uk/content/2013/01/discover-tenkara

    a
    nd read Jason Klass's Western vs Tenkara Casting - Different Strokes:

    http://www.tenkaratalk.com/2012/03/w...erent-strokes/

  4. #4

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    My guess is you are probably correct. You have a timing issue.
    ( this assumes by coiling you meant the line is just piling up on the ground or water not far from the rod tip, and not fully extending. If instead you meant the line is coiling due to memory from being wound on the line spool, then you need to learn to get most of the coil memory out of the line by stretching the line. )

    My view is
    - shorter lines are easier to cast than longer lines.
    - heavier lines are easier to cast than lighter lines.
    - tapered lines are easier to cast than level lines. Either mono or furled.
    - on the back cast. Stop at 12:00, pause for a moment to give the line time to extend rearward a bit before starting the forward cast.
    - make your back cast a little faster than the forward cast.
    - stop the forward cast at about 2:00 or 2:30. Not an abrupt stop, like you hit a mechanical stop. Rather like a quick deceleration, like you want to stop the forward motion in the shortest distance possible before hitting an imaginery mechanical stop.
    - don't start your forward casting motion to abruptly,with to much power. make the forward cast at a steady linear increase of acceleration rate.
    * don't think about the last 3 points to much. Just keep them as secondary background thoughts, your subconscious will figure out how to apply them during casting practice. At least that is my theory.

    (it takes time to develop fast enough line speed to cast a light line. A heavier line can be cast properly with a lower line speed than a lighter line)
    I also believe the speed of the tip of a longer rod is faster than the tip speed of a shorter rod. Therefore, I think if you have a zoom rod, you will find it easier to get faster line speed with the rod at full extension. Getting proper line speed with the rod at the shorter lenght will come with practice.

    I consider a short line to be a line that is about the same length of the rod or a little shorter.
    And a long line to be a line that is 4 feet or more longer than the rod.

    I like to watch this video of Masami Sakakibara casting a 12meter tapered line.
    The time period to cast a shorter line will be shorter, but the sequence of the timing - backcast, stop, pause, forward cast, stop, will be the same.

    Notice the speed of his back cast, the pause before starting the forward cast. The deceleration and stop on the forward cast. Think about that motion and timing during your practice casting.
    (it may also help to do a bit of side casting during your practice. When side casting you can see the line extend on the back cast and only start the forward cast when the line has extened rearward enough. It doesn't have to be fully extended, but close, especially in the begininng. )

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jalWBL9iuf4



    Part of the trick when the timing is correct is, I believe, you start the forward cast when the tip of the rod is still flexed rearward a little, then on the forward cast the rod tip will flex forward when you stop the forward cast motion, and when the tip continues to move forward it will put power into the line to propel the line forward to full extension.

    When you can cast a short line to your satisfaction, and want to try casting a longer line. You can first try casting a longer line of the same weight or size you were using before. If you can't get it to cast properly after a little practice. Try casting a heavier line at the new longer length. The heavier line won't need as much line speed as the lighter line. For example switch from a #3 line to a #4 line.

    All that being said. I also believe that trying to cast a longer line, even when your casting is not yet very good, helps you develop a sensitivity to the line, and what it is doing to the rod tip, that you just won't develop casting a short light line. Casting a longer line will magnify improper technique. And what that reveals may help you improve your technique casting a shorter line. When I thought my casting wasn't as good as it should be. I found that after trying and failing to cast a 6 meter line very well for 30 minutes. When I immediately followed that by switching back to a shorter line. The muscle memory from trying to cast the 6m line, had slowed down my cast, improved my pause timing, and my casting of the 4 m line was better. Therefore, I really recommend learning to cast a short line half way decently, there after. Practice casting a longer line for 15 - 30 minutes. Then immediately practice casting a shorter line.

    I think casting in the yard is ok for a lot of your practice. But I also think its better if you can cast into water. I think the drag on the line as it is lifted from the water helps to load the rod (that is flex the rod) thereby adding some line speed during your back cast.

    2? from a self taught tenkara caster.

    Good luck.

    D

  5. #5
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    Oct 2002
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    Fantastic post D!

    I really like the tip on practicing with a longer line. A short line is easy to cast, so you can get away with some poor technique. The long line will force you to learn proper technique. I don't fish long lines much, but I'll practice with one, now.

    When I moved to a light level line, I noticed the same thing. I had to up my game and improve my casting technique.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Norikane View Post
    Fantastic post D!
    I really like the tip on practicing with a longer line. .. The long line will force you to learn proper technique. I don't fish long lines much, but I'll practice with one, ....
    Thanks Bruce. My theory may be OTL ( out to lunch). I have recieved some resitance to the idea that practice casting long lines is a good thing to do. Practicing with lines longer than you will actually fish with. I'm a little on the fence about saying it might be better to start learning to cast with a long line, before trying to cast a shorter line. On the theory that your intial casting with a short line might teach poor technique from the beginning that might be difficult to unlearn. But not being able to start over myself, because I started learning to cast with a short line. It's hard to say if starting to learn to cast with a line several feet ( 4 or 5 ft) longer than the rod is a good idea or not. Maybe I could test the theory if I had someone who wanted to learn to cast. Starting with a heavier line of #4.5 or #5 might help the learning process too before going to a lighter line of # 3 or # 3.5.

    If you look at this video showing kids fishing at a fish pond. Where the fish are hungery and easy to catch. Most of the children appear to be using lines that are 4 - 6 feet longer than the rod. Most of them do fairly well casting. So I don't think it's their first time casting the line. In some cases the adults help them cast, and land the fish. But the lines appear to be quite a bit longer than the rods. Though it's possible the lines just look that long in the video. btw , Dr Ishigaki is one of the adults instructing the children.

    The title translates as something like First Parent Child Tenkara Experience.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGi-F64vWPI



    Of course on some streams short lines are the best or only way to fish. Long lines the choice in other places. And some people choose either short or long lines all the time.
    I practice casting lines of 7, 8, 10 meters. I do pretty well with 7. Ok with 8. Not very well at all with a 10 meter line. 80% of the time I fish with a line 4.5m, 5m or 5.5m.
    Once in a while a 4m or shorter line or 6m line. A few times just to see how it worked out a 7m line, just because I have learned to cast one decently. However, it seems like I catch more fish with a line of 4.5 or 5m. Pluse tippet. Most of the time I only fish with a longer line on wide rivers. Because I can see subsurface structure where fish might be sheltering or I can see fish jumping just a little to far for me to reach with a shorter line. Either fishing from the bank or wading and the middle of the river is to deep to wade into to reach the fish seen on the far side.

    David

  7. #7

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    Bill,
    I think I can help, because I had the same problem when I first started. Two points: First, I would begin with a furled line since they are easier to cast for most people. Secondly--and this is the more important point--keep your casting stroke short--really just a "flick," with the rod ending high. Usually, coils at your feet mean that you are over-powering the cast and stopping too low. You say to yourself, "I have to get that line out there!" and you do the exact opposite of what you need to do. Think "gentle flick" (for a good-quality rod), stop higher than you think you should, and you'll be amazed at what happens. Good luck and hope this helps!

  8. #8
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    Hey thanks for the reply.. I picked out 4 moonlit furled lines n plan on implementing them n getting things right.. and I keep watching vids of casters n what your saying really runs true..I'm seeing pretty much what your talking of with every caster I watch..n it is merely a flick of their wrist..I was using way to much western influence on my attempts.. working on locating good water in my area.n that's proving a task at the moment..since moving to cny more yrs ago then I care to admit I'm finding the fishing waters are way more spread out and access very limited.. that and so much is"closed" till April... really has my opportunities limited at the moment..second half of April should be awesome though I'm hoping..
    Last edited by billknepp; 03-10-2016 at 06:38 AM.
    Wish ya great fishing,Bill

  9. #9

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    If you have an old 3 or 4wt fly line around, there is another option you can try.

  10. #10
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    Dec 2006
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    I have not seen or cast the Hellbender, but I think they advertise it as being their big fish rod, so it is probably pretty stiff. Size 4.5 level line is plenty heavy so it should work, though. Switching to a furled line will not improve your form. It will allow you to cast with bad form so you might never improve, though.

    I have a good friend who is a tenkara angler and also a western fly fishing casting instructor. Although most tenkara anglers use much more wrist, it you have a good western cast you don't have to change much at all (at least if you follow the Joan Wulff school of casting rather than the Lefty Kreh school of casting!). The one thing you absolutely must change, though, is the followthough. Do not, Do Not dip your rod tip at the end of the forward cast. Keep it high - no lower than 45 degrees. The basic physics of casting a line, whether western or tenkara, are identical. You must smoothly accelerate on the back cast and stop the back cast abruptly with the rod just past vertical. Pause until the line straightens behind you. You should be able to feel it tug on the rod when it does, but watch the back cast in case you haven't yet noticed the tug. As soon as the line straightens, start your forward cast. You must accelerate throughout the forward cast and you absolutely must stop the forward cast abruptly, with the rod no lower than 45 degrees. Almost everyone who has tenkara casting problems is doing two things wrong. 1) the don't stop abruptly enough. 2) they don't stop the forward cast with the rod high enough.

    The cast should not be just wrist. You should move your upper arm, forearm and wrist. Review Joan Wulff's on-line videos of a fly cast. Her comments about the wrist snap that ends a forward cast - like using a screen door - push with your thumb (most tenkara anglers grip the rod with the index finger on top rather than the thumb, so push with your index finger) and pull with your ring finger and pinky) are THE key to a tenkara cast. That will give the rod the loading it needs so the rod tip whips forward when you stop your cast ABRUPTLY. I suggest Joan Wulff's videos rather than video's of Sakakibara because she describes what she is doing. He doesn't speak English so he can't tell you step by step what he does. But remember, do not dip the rod at the end of the forward cast. That is the one big difference.

    I would slightly disagree with David and suggest starting with a line (not counting tippet) that is no longer than the rod. Once you get it to roll over properly, then go to a longer line.
    Tenkara Bum

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